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Accueil » news » forums » Space Empires V » Space Empires V General

Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

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Soumis par BlueTemplar le Mer, 2008-05-14 08:25 Space Empires V General

This (another) artificial limitation is starting to really annoy me... and I see absolutely NO reason why it should be kept in SEV.
Maybe I didn't see something obvious?

Oh, and I also find the retrofit cost a bit cheap... (120% for added components and 30% of removed, no extra fuel/ordnance, and the need for repair bays - compared to a HUGE increase in construction speed)

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par LordDemon le Mer, 2008-05-14 08:48

No reason?

Design two ships:
Empty hull, that fills the requirements (crew, bridge etc.).

Design a proper ship with same hull type.

Build the empty hulls. They are cheap, so you likely will build few every turn even at low space yard rates.

Upgrade the empty hulls into real ships. You must repair the components, but with few repair ships you will be able to build half a dozen ships per planet per turn.

I'd say that is why the limit is there.

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Captain Kwok le Mer, 2008-05-14 08:48

If the retrofit cost is not capped, then you can have a situation where a player can build a basic hull and then upgrade it to a very expensive type of ship, like a Star Destroyer in basically two turns assuming they have the resources and repair capability. This would be an extreme case of "retroseries" building, which in this case is imbalanced. This is also goes to cover your second query, where you cite the construction speed advantage. If the retrofit cost cap is a balanced value, then retroseries building is a legitimate tactic in "emergency" type situations, but it doesn't have to be the standard building practice.

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Slimbo le Mer, 2008-05-14 08:57

I find retro-series building to be a very good standard practice inmo. Although it can become a pain. I find having to copy an obsolete ship with outdated engines a pain to upgrade weapons. Sometimes forget Engines are old and just click upgrade and then stuck with a ship having a ton of components to repair rather than just the couple of guns/sensors/armor/shields I wanted.

~Slimbo

Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design...

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par BlueTemplar le Mer, 2008-05-14 09:10

I find it really annoying having to design several retroseries designs within +50% cost from each other, when you could directly upgrade an empty hull to the last design.

Remember that nothing prevents you from giving several retrofit orders in the same turn - this limitation does not forbid you from getting a star destroyer in 2 turns...

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Slimbo le Mer, 2008-05-14 09:13

I was unaware you could do that.

~Slimbo

Everything that has transpired has done so according to my design...

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Captain Kwok le Mer, 2008-05-14 09:17

The main drawback to retroseries building as standard practice is the micromanagement and costs involved. It's usually easier to have more ships constructed at a slower rate (ie use more base space yards) to build up forces.


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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par BlueTemplar le Mer, 2008-05-14 09:19

I agree with the cost part, but really don't like the micromanagement part... that's not a good way to balance a game!

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Fyron le Mer, 2008-05-14 12:12

You can't issue multiple retrofit orders in the same turn in simultaneous move games (since retrofit order clears the queue), aka multiplayer.


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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Harmonious Hegemony le Mer, 2008-05-14 12:26

If you don't like 50%, it is a very simple thing to change the cost limit for retrofits in settings.txt.

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Shadow hornet le Mer, 2008-05-14 16:26

You can issue multiple retrofit orders in the same turn in simultaneous move games, I do that to build star bases with building ships at warp points in a few turns over taking 15 turns to build it.

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Shadow hornet le Mer, 2008-05-14 16:27

That is how it works in 1.66, but I am not sure about 1.71 in the unmodded game

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Khyron le Jeu, 2008-05-15 04:16

The retrofit command does not clear the orders list. The only things that could stop someone from retrofitting empty hulls to whatever final design they want are cost, repair rate, and avoidance of micromanagement.

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Fyron le Jeu, 2008-05-15 12:17

Sigh... why must Aaron forget every balance fix he added in previous iterations of the series every time he makes a new one...


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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par marhawkman le Ven, 2008-05-16 01:52

Heh... I still don't get this one. Repair speed is the entire reason for this? I can see how this would let you totally redo your ships each turn. Massproduction would get a boost too. and... is that it?

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par BlueTemplar le Ven, 2008-05-16 06:11

In simultaneous games it's also annoying from the point of ressource management - the retrofit ressource cost is not immediately payed - only when the turn is processed. You can easily go banckrupt if you abuse it, and the multiple retrofits per ship don't help with the ressource cost calculation...

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par capnq le Ven, 2008-05-16 07:24

Fyron wrote:
Sigh... why must Aaron forget every balance fix he added in previous iterations of the series every time he makes a new one...
Probably for the same reason he forgets to include basic functions that were added by popular demand in previous iterations.

It took until SEV v1.39 to get back the abiliity for a game host to reset a player's password, which wasn't added until SEIV v1.47 the last time.

-----
"Good morning, Pooh Bear," said Eeyore gloomily. "If it /is/ a good morning," he said. "Which I doubt," said he.

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Fyron le Ven, 2008-05-16 12:32

marhawkman wrote:
Heh... I still don't get this one. Repair speed is the entire reason for this? I can see how this would let you totally redo your ships each turn. Massproduction would get a boost too. and... is that it?
One word: Retroseries


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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par marhawkman le Sam, 2008-05-17 09:18

I know. I regularly do stuff like that in single to side step the 50% limitation. Seems kinda odd that it's THAT big of an issue though.

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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par Fyron le Sam, 2008-05-17 11:48

It is a big issue to be able to build expensive SM ships in 2 turns, instead of 20.


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Re: Why Retrofit is limited to +50% per order?

Soumis par marhawkman le Sam, 2008-05-17 13:40

Ah, that is something that it does prevent.

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